Metagame XY Doubles OU (VR Post #2, Samples Post #3)

qsns

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Volcanion  sprite from Home

volcanion 1.5 -> 1

absolute menace of a fire-type. while it has a worse matchup into thundurus and sylveon than heatran (kind of on sylveon, tran still loses anyway lol), it makes up for it by providing a much better general matchup into nearly everything else, making this a much more effective "glue" for teams that aren't built around heatran's substitute set like THALK. for instance, the safety goggles set alone gives you a really solid matchup into Trick Room variants and rain that heatran would generally flop in. i've been seeing this used more than heatran as the metagame moves more away from THALK and its ranking should reflect that.

diancie 3 -> 1.5

this is criminally underranked. very easy to click trick room with minimal support and start spamming diamond storm, of which there are a grand total of 0 resists besides aegislash in the top 3 tiers. incredibly difficult to kill it without dedicating a ton of resources towards it due to its diamond storm boosts + resistance to fire, which gives it protection against the common spread moves in the tier. i think safety goggles is the best set by far to completely shut down standard amoonguss balance, with earth power being a decent option over moonblast in that case to kill heatran. i genuinely think this has a case for tier 1 in the current metagame, but i would give people time to adapt to this before pushing it that far.



mega diancie 2 -> unranked

this is worse than normal diancie in almost every case even if you don't count the use of your mega stone. giving up the bulk means that you take serious damage from heat waves and earthquakes that put you into kill range from things like kangaskhan's seismic toss, giving up clear body means you have much less effective damage even considering the 60 base point boost, and the speed boost isn't very relevant when normal diancie has access to speed control anyway. literally garbage trash mon that i'd like to see unranked
 
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Stratos

Banned deucer.
Now that the Skymin tour is over (and I don't really plan on playing this tier in DPL), time to post all my Good XY Teams. The ones I trust enough to bring against a competent opponent. No long RMTs today, just some short descriptions.

:raichu::talonflame::bisharp::kyurem-black::volcanion::gengar-mega:
Raichu prio. Originally built for Kiichikos, who spams genies. HH Raichu + Scarf Cube hard counters literally every genie set. With Kang not running Inner Focus anymore, this is also safe to lead into Kang himself. This is shitty in TR and shaky in other speed control. My answer to that was to stack the two strongest priority users on the team, so I don't give a fuck about speed control. They also work excellently with Helping Hand.

:politoed::kingdra::swampert-mega::talonflame::tornadus::ludicolo:
4 water 2 flying. I'm a big believer in typestacking in XY. One of the best types to do it with is Water. Talon checks TR + opposing rain while Tornadus checks TR + opposing sun. Everything else will eventually fall to swift swimmers. Thinking about it now, Tornadus should probably be Thundurus honestly.

:shaymin-sky::hydreigon::volcanion::aegislash::landorus-therian::gengar-mega:
double sub ghosts. The best Skymin team I was able to build in this tour, despite the Thundurus weakness. Versus non-Thundurus teams, I would bet on it every time. Ghosts have a lot of chances to sub in this meta and put on defensive pressure, while everything else puts on offensive pressure.

:kangaskhan-mega::gastrodon::talonflame::landorus-therian::diancie::volcanion:
Gastrodon tier. Built around fast Stoss kang for umbry, who loves Vest Lando. Unfortunately did not win its debut match because it struggles with defensive wincons. Could probably stand to be improved or revamped, but Gastrodon invalidating Volcanion as a Pokemon is really nice on certain comps. Allows you to stack water weaks like this.

With that out of the way, I'd like to make a whole SLEW of VR noms:

:sylveon: Sylveon 1 -> 1.5
THALKS is clearly not the team it used to be and Sylveon has struggled to find use on anything that generates fewer free turns.

:heatran: Heatran 1 -> 1.5
This has honestly been a long time in coming. Heatran is fine, but it doesn't win games on its own anymore. I even rate it below Sylveon. You get to click Heat Wave once or twice before you die and do good chip but probably not KO anything.

:raichu: Raichu UR -> 3
:rhydon: Rhydon UR -> 3
The twin Lightningrodders are a big reason why THALKS is fading hard, since it relies entirely on Thundurus for speed control and basically gets fucked by any well constructed team with these mons. But even outside of the Thund matchup they are decent. I think this is a no brainer.

:swampert-mega: Swampert 3 -> 2
Rain mon that hard counters Thundurus. Enough said, really. Rain is stupid good atm.

:gengar-mega: Mega Gengar 1.5 -> 1 OR
:kangaskhan-mega: Kang 1 -> 1.5, :charizard-mega-y: Zard / :gardevoir-mega: Garde 1.5 -> 2
I don't think Mega Gengar is broken, but it is the most splashable mega after (maybe even before) Kangaskhan. These two deserve a tier to their own above the Garde / Zard / Pert (who are above everything else).

:diancie: Diancie 3 -> 2
Like in SM it's a really threatening TR attacker since not many people have rock resists. Even in my game vs umbry where I had wide guard Aegislash this thing was pretty scary, since most of the common TR partners check that.

:diancie-mega: Mega Diancie 2 -> 3 / UR
:porygon2: Porygon2 2 -> 3 / UR
:azumarill: Azumarill 2 -> 3 / UR
Trash.
 

Idyll

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more noms on top of the other ones above

:ludicolo: Ludicolo 3 -> 2
The better rain builds rn are reliant on typestacking and running multiple swift swimmers; Ludicolo is a good 2nd option on comps with a Mega other than Swampert + it fits on triple swim too. I don't think it's absurd to put Ludicolo in line with the other rain mons, it'd be at the low end of 2 personally but it's there

:volcarona: Volcarona 2 -> 3
talon meta lol

:venusaur-mega: Mega Venusaur 3 -> UR
who the fuck is this

:cresselia: Cresselia 1.5 -> 2
despite it 6-0ing a team in the final, most teams are usually prepared for this; thought the lack of burns and chip in the meta is notable i still think this is too slow in general. i also think it's a reach to say this is at the same level with the fire-types (cano, zard, talon, tran) + kyu-b

:shaymin-sky: Skymin UR -> 2
not exactly as easy of a fit to teams, there is also a strong surge of mgar and talon rn. this is the high end of 2 though, fast tailwind + that coverage is p nice but it's a bit wonky
 

Idyll

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[VR UPDATE]

VR shifts accounting for the Court of Appeals metagame are now happening! In addition, SMB and mishimono are now taking the places of Charlotte and stax as voters.

Falls:

:heatran: Heatran: 1 -> 1.5
:sylveon: Sylveon: 1 -> 1.5
:cresselia: Cresselia: 1.5 -> 2
:gardevoir-mega: Mega Gardevoir: 1.5 -> 2
:azumarill: Azumarill: 2 -> 3
:diancie-mega: Mega Diancie: 2 -> 3
:porygon2: Porygon2: 2 -> 3
:rotom-wash: Rotom-Wash: 2 -> 3
:volcarona: Volcarona: 2 -> 3

Rises:

:gengar-mega: Mega Gengar: 1.5 -> 1
:diancie: Diancie: 3 -> 2
:ludicolo: Ludicolo: 3 -> 2
:swampert-mega: Mega Swampert: 3 -> 2
:raichu: Raichu: UR -> 3
:rhydon: Rhydon: UR -> 3

:shaymin-sky: Shaymin-Sky: UR -> 2


We'll also have a change in nomenclature; instead of a 1 -> 1.5 -> 2 -> 3 ranking system, we will now instead be using 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4. This is just a change in names and will not affect any rankings whatsoever, and Pokemon still remain in their equivalent rank. The rises and falls in this voting phase still use the old system, but the new one will be used from hereon.
 

finally

how can you swallow so much sleep?
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Raichu
raichu sprite.png

tier 4 --> tier 3
Raichu does 1 job really well. It beats thundurus. Not only does it beat thundurus, it beats thundurus and it's partner beside it. The combination of fake out/encore and lightningrod pressures thundurus' teammate to protect in order to switch thundy out safely. This creates 2 points of pressure: 1) your opponent wants to switch with thundy, and 2) your opponent wants to protect with the other pokemon (which would generate another forced switch the following turn bc of encore) or your opponent dosent want to protect (letting your fast raichu partner hit). The way you abuse raichu particularly well is: to pair it with a very fast partner so that the fast partner can threaten a kill with its STAB, and raichu can threaten encore. I would agree that thundy is literally the only thing that raichu beats, but considering that most teams you will run into will have a thundy, I'd say raichu warrants a spot on tier 3 simply due to how often it is gonna kill it in the matchup. On average (meaning games against thundy/total games), it will do more work than a skymin or a hydreigon simply due to the prevalence of thundy.

Mega Gardevoir
mega garde sprite.png

tier 3 --> unranked
Mega Gardevoir's opportunity cost is high. It's not that mega-gard is bad persay, but rather, forgoing one of the big 3 (kang,char,gengar) is not worth it. Spread fairy attacks are done at a less powerful level with Sylveon, but you get to abuse a better mega in 2 ways: 1) using the mega has inherent strengths associated with it unrelated to using sylveon (kang hits hard, gengar shadow tag) and 2) the different mega makes your sylveon shine more (i.e. kang fake outting to help sylveon spam hyper voice or gengar trapping so sylveon can set up calm mind and sub). One could argue that condensing the fairy type slot + the mega slot offers you a whole nother slot to do something, but the need to condense is not as high as the need for total damage output by your team. If you're looking to run a tr fairy spam; again there is opportunity cost, bc you could run kang to help you set up tr more consistently with fake out or camerupt to help break things like heatran and volcanion that give sylveon the itchy scratchy goosebumps.

Keldeo
keldeo sprite.png

tier 4 --> unranked
The prevalence of amoonguss, thundy, and the unbanning of skymin make keldeo's job very hard. Even with a life orb, keldeo has to run hydro pump to net important kills. Keldeo's job of (lando-t and kang) "breaker" is done better by kyurem-b, aegislash, and lando-t. Keldeo does a great job at beating other tier 4 pokemon, but as you look higher in the ranks, you can see how even just a couple pieces of thalk enervate your momentum that your breaker is supposed to generate. Akin to a poorly played cresselia, keldeo would be negative momentum which leaves your partner vulnerable to spores and thunder waves from amoonguss and thundurus respectively. This leads to forcing you to put more safety goggles on the team and more STAB ice attacks, but at this point we are running bad sets to make bad pokemon less bad.

Kang
kang.png

tier 1--> it's own tier/kang tier
I use Kang on pretty much every team. I feel like I have to be ct'ing something specific if I want to bring something else (mega gengar for trap and setup moves/mega ttar for sun destruction/mega swampert for rain if i know they dont bring thundy). The pressure kang represents with its' effective 5 moves (fake out/double-edge/seismic toss/sucker punch/protect) mean that you have to play around 2 different kangs pretty much. Kang is valuable in every matchup because it at the very least goes for 1-for-1 through the damage it musters with its normal stab/seismic toss. Fake out helps if you want to run setup mons, if you want to stop tr (scrappy), sucker punch to fight faster pokemon or "slower" pokemon in tr, and a lot of the time it's even better than tr sweepers like mega camerupt or mega mawile on full tr teams. I think it would be disingenuous to list things like ice punch or crunch as options on Kang that you "have to account for", but I do want to bring it up as a point of how the conventionally brute strength pokemon can also be flexible to help patch up holes in teams (read: normally you just slap a kang on a team and it gets better, but now you slap a kang on the team and it makes the team better and also fulfills a specific role the team needs). In addition to move flexibility, kang can run a variety of ev spreads. Pretty much every one of them runs max+ speed, but where you put your atk and hp evs can really throw off your opponent.
Kang is a good lead, but an even better midgame pressure. The pressure exerted by midgame fake out/seismic toss immediately puts you on the upper foot. An example of the strength/warping nature of kang is people are running max def amoonguss and rocky helmet on random things. Anecdotally, I ask myself after making a team: "Would this team be better with kang?".
There are a couple good pokemon against kang: rocky helmet max def amoong, rocky helmet ferro, aegislash, and mega gengar. The rocky helmet grasses are the only ones that count as true counters bc they can switch in and click whatever it wants. For the other 2, you have to play by kangs' rules after you switch them in. You have to go for king's shield at certain times. You have to go for sub or will-o-wisp. Normally a counter can pretty freely click the moves it wants to, but sucker punch forces those 2 ghosts to click non-attacking moves (something the kang user can take advantage of). This is all assuming the opponent dosen't just switch their kang out for a rampage later in the game.
In conclusion, the opportunity cost of not running kang is super high.

where were u when keldeo was kil
i was playing knights when opp brought thalk
"keldeo is kil"
"no..."
;_;
 

Idyll

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team dump. every team here is brand new. All teams have been tested and proven to be able to win vs THALK Sylveon (my personal rule was if it can't beat THALKS it's getting deleted) + the general modern meta has been considered in the theory, so any one should be fine for general use.



Week 1 // gard wow! // Random Numbers vs n1n1 // Replay

Off the rip we knew that n1n1 was going to use his usual weird stuff, and that's something that I'm fine with. I personally know for a fact that I am winning any honest fight, so all I had to do prepare a team that was both normally decent and at the same time ready for his teams that have polarizing matchups (Full TR & MVenu). Mega Gardevoir, Skymin, and LO KB were all chosen for their ability to break down teams quickly and, in particular, any sort of team that wants to win with Mega Venusaur is straight up going to lose, while Heatran and the genies are there for their defensive utility. Double Taunt is for the Trick Room match-up, and Flash Cannon is for breaking Diancie through Amoong.

I got the MVenu match-up we wanted and, though I played the early game suboptimally, I was also playing n1n1 so it all worked out in the end. NNs were just me randomly pressing my numeric keyboard minutes before the game, for no particular reason other than just to do it

Week 2 // CUSTAP TYRANITAR // Perfetcly Normal Doubles Team vs Kiichikos // Replay

Going into this week I didn't actually have any idea of what I wanted to use vs Kiichikos, considering he hasn't really played much of the metagame with Skymin, so I just went in with this team—the one that I prepared for Week 1 should any user not named n1n1 be slotted in XY instead. Basically I wanted to something that's both strong enough in the modern metagame while still pushing it a bit with some epicness; as you can see in the title you know that the Tyranitar is packing some major heat.

I actually made the Tyranitar even before DPL started, and when I showed it to the team while the draft was still going on everybody described it as a DPP set lol. The theory is that Tyranitar is probably not dying to anything straight up so Custap is a good choice for sniping stuff—other items don't really give it much of an edge that it needs to be good good but Custap gives it some value in getting a straight up kill e.g. Lando-T with Ice Beam or Mega Kangaskhan / Heatran with Superpower. Tyranitar is also actually really good in the metagame right now; it matches up well versus the genies, invalidates Mega Gengar, singlehandedly beats all the popular Fire-types in the metagame (BB resist too), and takes on any special attacker really well . At the same time, Fighting-types don't actually exist (and my team is prepped should any make a surprise appearance).

The team functions by having strong hitters in Kangaskhan / Skymin / Volcanion while at the same time having strong glues in Tar + Genies, kind of like the the same formula as last week but with better mons. Funnily enough, even though Stratos was the one most against Modest LO Skymin back in the day he was the one who suggested it on this team (I was Timid), regardless I can't use Sash properly with Sand up so yeah.

During the game, my heart skipped a beat when I totally forgot the possibility of WP on Diancie but in the end it was just Gogs as I thought. The NNs are for pissing people off when they notice them.

Week 3 // exca scarf wash // Meteorology Terms Index vs MajorBowman // Replay

This was a match-up that I actually have a data to prep with, though they're mostly observational, and this team was meant to exploit those. Basically, I thought that Jake was using teams that looked a bit dated and was thus going to lean back to some pet favorites; the team was meant to be able to outmatch-up any team he could possibly to bring. I had Mega Gengar + Rocky Helmet Lando-T for possible Mega Kangaskhan, Tyranitar for Zard-Y and MGar, TTar + Exca for Kyu-B, Skymin + Excadrill + Scarf Rotom-W for Terrakion, and MGar + Skymin + Tar for Cresselia. Considering I matched up versus Zard + Cress, this line of thinking was definitely vindicated—though this didn't stop me from having bad juju with it during tests in the lead-up to the game.

Mega Gengar + sand core also just flowed really nice in my head; Exca was always a menace especially when they can't switch to their Intimidators, as was the idea. The rest of the team was meant to be floating because fuck Drill Run Exca mane; Landorus-T was a default pick because it's not an optional Pokemon for XY while Skymin also fit the bill + does some epic things vs Amoong and Waters. Scarf Rotom-W is a bit more unconventional but also somehow fit the team perfectly I guess; aside from being Ground-immune, it was also capable of sniping Scarf Landorus-T as they had no reason to go Jolly in this metagame. This was on top of it providing decent resists and packing Volt Switch to pivot with MGar and Sand; with Rotom-W and Lando-T, I had a nice way to get more bang for my back with the dual trapping I had.

To this day I'm still feeling nice as fuck with my Pursuit + SR play to kill Zard-Y. The NNs were from the Meteorology terms index from Wikipedia, I just picked the ones that made sense and sounded cool.

Week 4 // tox roar cune // Rainbow Six Siege Maps vs Level 51 // Replay

I knew this was going to be a toughie for various reasons; at the time both me and Level 51 were one of four people to still be flawless record-wise so we definitely were both nice with it. At the same time, I was paranoid as fuck of the possibility of getting janked with something like Taste the Rainbow—this team was built with the match-up in mind.

Level 51 was definitely a Mega Kangaskhan player more than anything else, though, so I was definitely prepared more for that more than I normalyl should; this was why the actual base of the team was the double Ghost core + Rocky Helmet Landorus-T. LO KB and Talonflame were there to be no-bullshit-no-sir picks with Mega Gengar, quickly eliminating stuff I ever want eliminated. The Suicune though... is what ultimately shows how scared I was of Taste the Rainbow lmfao. While Suicune as a Tailwinder was good on this team for normal reasons, it also has Safety Goggles + Roar specifically for Roaring out somebody through Amoonguss, while my match-up with Clefairy was doable. I actually thought about my opening lines against that team heavily and it was looking good; the thought of losing to that was simply too much of a career-ender to ignore.

Still... something about this team felt off, and both me and Stratos were definitely having bad juju with this team specifically. Like, it shows up during testing but it also somehow still feels really wrong for no particular reason. We couldn't exactly pinpoint why but it was what it was. It bossed up during the game and that's all that matters... though I did realize 2 weeks later that Hydreigon eats this team up. Good thing no one uses him I guess!

For a brief moment in the game, I really took my sweet time because I was the only one at home and had to receive a relief package in the middle of the game. NNs are maps from Rainbow Six Siege.

Week 5 to Semis // happenings during the break

We had the first seed locked pretty much by this point and all we needed was to win like 2 more games or something to 100% clinch it. I went down to BW and play SMB, tired of having to think about XY for four weeks straight. It was relatively uneventful but some funny things did happen to give me my XY fill.

Level 51 hit me up for a test like a few hours before his actual match vs DLT JRL BELL, and of course I was always down for smoke so I went up with basic ass THALK Sylveon. Cue DLT JRL BELL bring THALK Sylveon in the game. Watching the game live I thought it was hilarious how Level 51 just played the exact match-up in advance.

For Semis I had nothing to do which was really not epic, so I decided it was time to do some experimenting with LO Pursuit Deo-A. My enthusiasm was quickly shattered because it was so fucking bad; my only respite was Bell hitting me up with some test games. In one of those, he asked me to bring Mega Metagross, probably fearing it due to getting slapped by him a week ago, so I obliged and made my own bootleg version of the only XY DOU Mega Metagross team currently in existence—Level 51's. Surely he wasn't gonna bring it again, and I highly doubted that Mega Metagross was due for any repeat appearances. Cue Level 51 bringing the same Mega Metagross team again...

Finals // gamer moment / Valorant Agents vs DLT JRL BELL // Replay

For no particular reason I wanted to play an honest game of Pokemon for once—plot twist: I played a genie eater, which basically counter-styled me to hell and back. I was honestly amazed at the prep but during the game I was appalled beyond imagination. But it was what it was, props to the braintrust for that one as that was really epic.

Honestly I can't really talk much about this team because it's really just default cores + Talonflame. So instead, I'll talk about the value of the Genie Eater archetype of MGar + Raichu + Scarf Kyu-B. The theory is basically Scarf Kyu-B beats genies if it doesn't get paralyzed; Raichu exsists to make sure that doesn't happen, while MGar makes sure they have no way out. This is typically paired with Talonflame it seems; CB Talon is a really strong Amoong counter for an archetype that naturally starts out leaning to Hyper Offense, and in addition it also functions well in Trick Room. The rest is typically more glue-ish; Bell had Keldeo and Landorus-T for Mega Kangaskhan + Landorus-T things, respectively, while other versions have Keld + Bish (mine) or Volcanion + Bish (Stratos's)

For my team, the only really dishonest part about it is Aegislash. I have come to the stark realization that Aegislash should either be really slow for the Trick Room match-up or just straight up max Speed. I tried the former on this team and it sucked dick so much, so I tried max Speed—voila! I didn't really want the slow version on this team as the TR match-up is fine already, so instead I prefer maximum pressure applied, in and out of Tailwind. While this seems unintuitive, Aegislash only really makes use of its bulk the turn it switches in; playing it tank-and-spank is overall not a winning line for this kind of team, so instead I maximize the aggressiveness I can apply. The theory is that you don't have to take hits when you're going first and getting KOs, and if there was ever a need for a tank-and-spank line switching out is usually also fine if not better. It performed really well in tests, in particular beating a Volcanion all on its own lmao that was epic to see.

I still find relief in the fact that the game was much closer than it was for how bad the match-up was for me. The NNs are agents from Valorant, though really I just wanted an excuse to use Phoenix because this song is really really good.

Overall the tour was epic. Landorus-T is a required Pokemon in XY I hope no one forgets that. pce out bros, see you all in xy cup
 

JRL

JRL#3736
is a Tiering Contributor
Hey everyone! I'm gonna show you the teams that I have used this DPL. This was my first time playing ORAS DOU, so I wanna thank all my teammates for helping and advising me out in order to understand the metagame. Also big thanks to Tenzai and voltix cause without them it would've been difficult to make this post.

Week Two vs MajorBowman

:diancie-mega::thundurus::landorus-therian::aegislash::kyurem-black::volcanion:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6doublesou-1107508822

Ngl, I was quite lost at the beggining... I want to use something solid that could do well against the most part of the meta. Bowman played an offensive trap rain which was scary at first.




Week Three vs Human

:kangaskhan-mega::landorus-therian::volcanion::amoonguss::thundurus::aegislash:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6doublesou-1111730660

After winning w2 I was excited and eager. I really liked the lando-thund-volca core, I want to paired with kangas this time. Human's perish trap was surprising as well. I believe my aegis made a good role in match and I managed myself to deal well with such a scary match




Week Four vs DaAwesomeDude1

:kyurem-black::landorus-therian::volcanion::gengar-mega::ferrothorn::thundurus:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6doublesou-1116297333

Since that same core has given me a 2-0 so far, I wanna repeat it one more time. My actual record, the nerves and my lack of experience put a lot of pressure on me. Daddy played better and took a solid win for him. The loss took myself back to the reality. I needed to do better if I wanna keep playing, I needed to work harder and learn from my mistakes




Week Five vs Level 51

:kangaskhan-mega::landorus-therian::amoonguss::thundurus::sylveon::heatran:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6doublesou-1120417333

Level is a great player who was having a great tour. I try to make the best of the preps, but level proof to be too much. It was a hard blow, with 2-2 on my side, I had doubts whether if I wanted (and deserve) to play semis, cause all my teammates managed to win. Finally, kyle trusted me once again, where I will have to face level again




Semifinals vs Level 51

:kangaskhan-mega::landorus-therian::aegislash::volcanion::amoonguss::thundurus:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6doublesou-1124328419

I trusted the prep I made for week 5, so I repeat the same team but making some changes to it. Level also repeated team, which at first made me feel secure since I had some practice vs that team, but then I realised not having sylveon was an issue because of level's hydreigon puts some work. Aegis was the star again, not protecting him was a tough call but worked out. It was a tense match, but I really wanted to win after w5 defeat. Thanks to my win we made our way to the finals




Finals vs Memoric

:gengar-mega::landorus-therian::keldeo::kyurem-black::talonflame::raichu:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6doublesou-1127890694

My opp was memoric. I was impressed by the fact that I started learning about ORAS DOU watching his replays, and now I had to face it in the finals. It was clear to me that it was gonna be a though match. I needed a good matchup and not making mistakes during the game to have a chance to beat him. I tried to prepare by using a gengar+ scarf kyub+ helmet rocks lando core (the lando was av at the end tho). I managed myself to get a positive matchup and get a totally unexpected win (even for me) which helped my team to win the DPL!

[/SPOILER]
Lastly, I want to thank kyle and ezrael for giving me the opportunity to be on the team, It has been a pleasure to share team with some of the best players!!
 
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Idyll

whisper the names of your enemies
is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
RBTT Champion
Post-DPL noms

:xy/sylveon:
Sylveon: 2 to 3

Don't get me wrong, it's really good in THALK... but it's only really proven to be only good in THALK as of late, and that's a team that's really fallen off as time goes by. For a tier 2 Pokemon, it's not really as splashable anywhere; to be at its best, it really needs to be on that specific team and there has yet been evidence to the contrary.

:xy/amoonguss:
Amoonguss: 1 to 2

Amoonguss doesn't really have the near-universal splashability of the genies nor the sheer power level of MGar and MKang to be at 1. While Rage Powder and Spore are powerful tools, Amoonguss as a Pokemon is also one that is universally prepared for; while sure, the fact that it's so strong that people actually have to watch out for it is something to consider, the fact of the matter is that it's not really as effective in practice. The top 5 pokemon in XY DOU usage all have 50% WR, except Amoong which sinks to a mere 38%.

:xy/Hoopa-unbound:
Hoopa-U: 2 to 3

While it did have a good showing in DPL, the fact is that Hoopa-U doesn't really fit on as much teams as the rest of 2 rn; it offering no defensive utility whatsoever really restricts the kinds of teams it fits on. While a strong Pokemon on its own right, I do think it fits much better in three; the other guys in 2 are just much better at being universally good than Hoopa-U

:xy/shaymin-sky:
Shaymin-S: 3 to 2

Skymin really surprised and impressed me in DPL; it by itself is able to add a fresh new and effective way of building teams in this metagame by virtue of being a fast, Grass-type Tailwinder with additional support in Seed Flare drops. The fact that it can offer so much is generally incredible for a currently tier 3 Pokemon, and as icing on the cake it matches up really well against Volcanion, Landorus-T, and Amoonguss too, all threats that anyone will appreciate having more options against. These frameworks with Skymin are really interesting to explore much further I think, a strong tier 2 Pokemon for sure.

:xy/tyranitar:
Tyranitar: 4 to 3

I played with this guy a lot personally I think it's a really strong pick in the metagame as of now; it matches up favorably against pretty much every Fire-type in metagame (Tran, Talon, Volc, Zard), the genies (only fearing Superpower from Scarfed Lando-Ts), and most importantly Mega Gengar. It's a strong anti-meta pick as it can essentially make specific match-ups instantly favorable, and with Fighting-types still being rare at best it's definitely an interesting pick when building for sure, and even without these match-ups its sheer bulk and strength makes it a reliable 1-for-1 trader. Being a nice weapon against rain teams is also a plus.

:xy/venusaur-mega:
Mega Venusaur: 4 to UR

it's still trash
 
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Stratos

Banned deucer.
My lando post in SM was well received so let's talk about CB talon spreads in XY. This one should be simpler lol.

Talonflame @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Sleep Talk

Talonflame @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sleep Talk
- Flare Blitz

These are the main 2 spreads for CB talon. Both are dictated by the mirror.
You are basically forced to run max+ attack because of the calc on bulkless zard (83% to OHKO). You don't want to make that any worse than it has to be.
The bulk afforded by 248 HP / 8 Def is actually extremely significant. For example: You are now a Charizard switchin. You now can OHKO Ludicolo after rocks without dying. You live opposing CB Talon BB 15/16 of the time (hence the spread) and trade. You have odd HP for rocks—though I've never actaully found that one to be relevant since you only switch into rocks once, unlike Zard. If you play around with max HP cbt it's hard to go back.
You can move various EVs into Spe for creep but at 252/0 Def you are now already only 13/16 to live Brave Bird in the mirror. Every creep EV is living dangerously as you are now reducing your odds to survive while still screwing yourself over against Talon that's creeped harder than you.

If you want to creep, I suggest going all the way. At 252 Spe your odds of winning a Talon mirror suddenly jump back to 50%. However you are going to be playing with a much frailer Talon that will die after two Brave Birds instead of three.
This also outspeeds Jolly Sucker Kang that thinks it is cute, which can give peace of mind in that specific matchup. I don't like Memoric's 88 HP Talonflame that's specifically EV'd for that one because it loses hard to the 252 Spe one.
 

Platinum God n1n1

the real n1n1
is a Tiering Contributor
why not use Uturn in 4th slot, unless to not revel CB which has become very popular so idt its worth the trade off.
Also worth considering speed creeping with 144+ speed to out run Adamant 252 with BB and getting to dump 112 in HP.
1 other option is steel wing, it was really popular on Talon when Diancie was a Tier 2 mon, now its fallen, the niche is less. but if you expect diancie its a useful option that can also hit other fairies hard.

Talonflame @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 112 HP / 252 Atk / 144 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Steel Wing
- U-turn
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
why not use Uturn in 4th slot, unless to not revel CB which has become very popular so idt its worth the trade off.
Also worth considering speed creeping with 144+ speed to out run Adamant 252 with BB and getting to dump 112 in HP.
1 other option is steel wing, it was really popular on Talon when Diancie was a Tier 2 mon, now its fallen, the niche is less. but if you expect diancie its a useful option that can also hit other fairies hard.

Talonflame @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 112 HP / 252 Atk / 144 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Steel Wing
- U-turn
With Sleep Talk, you want to be running fewer moves so you only pull the good ones after switching into Amoonguss. I'd even consider whether I really need Flare Blitz. Though STalk Talon is a pretty last-ditch Amoonguss answer since it turns off Gale Wings, it does happen occasionally. I'm not really opposed to U-turn but I don't tend to run it on my own Talons because the chances I want to click it are so low.

Steel Wing is an interesting thought, you hit non-Diancie fairies harder with just Brave Bird but you go from 25% to 75% on Diancie. However, Talonflame is such a good check to literally everything else on TR that I really don't like the idea of trying to trade it for big damage on Diancie and trying to position such that I can Steel Wing a diancie for a KO seems insanely finnicky—no TR up, diancie already chipped, no scrafty/amoonguss, etc... I would rather just run STalk.

I'm pretty opposed to Jolly talonflame because of this calc vs the lando spread in the THALKS sample:
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Gale Wings Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 8 HP / 88 Def Landorus-Therian: 142-168 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO
Back before everyone caught on that scarf lando isn't a Talonflame switchin, this was one of his main targets. It still comes up often enough that I'm not comfortable missing out on this 2HKO. If I was talking about why Life Orb Talonflame is bad, this calc would have been one of my main points, and the same applies to Jolly. You at least have a solid 2HKO roll on bulkless Lando but that set is cringe anyhow
 

Platinum God n1n1

the real n1n1
is a Tiering Contributor
I've been holding on to my teams for a while now. Since no new XY tours coming up for a while, I will give you a dump of some of my favorites


Gengar-Mega @ Gengarite
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 24 SpA / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Shadow Ball
- Trick Room
- Protect

Regirock @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Protect

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 120 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Leech Seed
- Protect

Volcanion @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 192 SpA / 64 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Heat Wave
- Substitute
- Protect

Mew @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fake Out
- Ice Beam
- Volt Switch
- Transform

Stratos Salamence (Salamence) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 204 HP / 124 Def / 56 SpA / 124 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Hydro Pump
- Roost
This is a bulky TR team I used to beat memoric in the Skymin tour. It is good against the stuff he was using and I told him I would use Regirock, so I built around that. Usually I lead Gengar and Mew to set up TR, I do not like going for speed ties with other gengar so I'm just out running Skymin with him and maximizing HP to help ensure I can set TR with out dying.


Mawile-Mega @ Mawilite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 224 Atk / 36 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Play Rough
- Protect

Kyurem-Black @ Leftovers
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 108 HP / 252 SpA / 148 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Protect

Shaymin-Sky @ Focus Sash
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Air Slash
- Earth Power
- Protect

Volcanion @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 180 HP / 152 SpA / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Heat Wave
- Substitute
- Protect

Gengar @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp
- Trick Room
- Icy Wind

Thundurus @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 112 HP / 160 Def / 28 SpA / 124 SpD / 84 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt
- Protect
Here is a Hyper offensive style / semi fast room. It centers around Mawile being super strong the other mons just remove threats like Heatran which is why Skymin has EP and Lando which is why I have Sub Kyurem/Sub Volc and Icy Wind Gengar. The other mons also have a lot of good match ups against Water types who Mawile does not do well against.


Kangaskhan-Mega @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Fake Out
- Power-Up Punch
- Return
- Sucker Punch

Diancie @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Trick Room
- Protect

Amoonguss @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 84 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rage Powder
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Protect

Chandelure @ Focus Sash
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 1 Spe
- Shadow Ball
- Heat Wave
- Trick Room
- Protect

Gyarados @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Waterfall
- Ice Fang
- Double-Edge
- Stone Edge

Hoopa-Unbound @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Hyperspace Fury
- Hyperspace Hole
- Trick Room
- Protect
This is the best hard room team in the game which is why I use it a lot.


Aerodactyl-Mega @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 20 HP / 252 Atk / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Sky Drop
- Rock Slide
- Protect

Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Crunch
- Iron Head
- Low Kick

Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Hydro Pump
- Fire Blast
- Air Cutter

Rotom-Wash @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 156 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Earth Power
- Substitute
- Protect

Abomasnow @ Focus Sash
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Blizzard
- Energy Ball
- Ice Shard
- Focus Blast
This is an unlikely combination of mons. I like Ttar + Aboma's match up vs genies which are a threat to Areo. The iron heads are useful to kill Faries. Salamence offers Intim + wide range of coverage. I think Air Cutter is really good, its a stab move that does surprisingly strong damage to stuff like fightings and ammoonguss.
 
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Idyll

whisper the names of your enemies
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xy teams used in classic po. surprisingly only one lando was used when it's typically in all my teams

thalk deo
:kangaskhan-mega::amoonguss::heatran::deoxys-attack::thundurus::landorus-therian:

It's literally just THALK with a Deoxys-A slapped onto the build for fun. I will hold that THALK as a base is fundamentally solid in the metagame, with pretty much every match-up and notable threat in the metagame covered evenly, though it's a bit more skill-based than other builds due to a lack of particularly strong match-ups as well. I look at the sixth slot in THALK as more of a flex slot than a constant; the prototypical version uses Sylveon, which capitalizes on all the spacing to be a slow wincon, but really the slot can be changed up depending on metagaming, style, or just personal preference. I've tried out Azumarill on this six, for example, for a wincon that can be played aggressively and for a Pokemon that has a better matchup vs Landorus-T and Heatran.

Deoxys-A is the one I used in my game vs SMB; I really just felt incredibly aggressive, if not ballsy, at the time. This was a version I tried out during DPL; it performed well enough in testing, but at the time it had Pursuit which really sucked so I put ESpeed on it instead. Deoxys-A fits well on this composition because it can quicky apply pressure on pretty much everything, working well with THALK's generalist, check-everything nature while appreciating the space that it gives back. Psycho Boost and Superpower have great neutral coverage between them, while ESpeed means I have more tools for Talonflame, rain, and moments when I slip vs opposing Speed control. This is certainly an aggressive yet probably viable take on the comp for sure.

lmfao what
:gardevoir-mega::diancie::heatran::amoonguss::gyarados::talonflame:

It doesn't look like it, but this is actually a straight up Full TR team. I built this for last year's Grand Prix PO when I wanted to use Mega Gardevoir + Diancie for some fun with strong spread damage in TR along with ErupTran. Amoonguss is there as a facilitator / TR threat, with Gyarados being more of a utility attacker and Talonflame as a strong presence in any field condition (that can also make space for a TR set with a kill if played properly).

This team is really just good at playing for position, hitting stuff with strong attacks, and repeating the process due to how hard to pick off the threats are. Playing for resets is surprisingly not that difficult, and things that can Sub don't punish me that much due to my guys's good match-up against them. Amoonguss is not really a problem because my team still has presence outside of TR + I have a lot of techs for it; obviously Mega Gardevoir can just Psyshock, but I also have Gogs on Tran as well as double STalk double Band. Team looks iffy but it definitely bosses up, Diancie is good.

HO???
:gengar-mega::keldeo::kyurem-black::raichu::bisharp::talonflame:

I was originally trying to build with MGar + double priority as a concept of an offensive team that works in any field condition, with LOKB and Keldeo for breaking presence and Raichu as facilitation, but the team was so weak to Scarf Lando-T I decided to have Scarf Kyurem-B instead, making it pretty much a bootleg of the prototypical geniekiller. I made this around pre-Skymin, and what makes this team a bit different is how Keldeo fits into the team's structure.

What makes Keldeo over Volcanion a viable option is that, though you do miss out on some TR match-ups as well as become somewhat weaker to Amoonguss, the team does become overall better in dealing with Mega Kangaskhan, opposing Kyurem-B, Hydreigon, and Heatran. That is to say, I definitely think that Keldeo is better in a faster, positioning-oriented metagame as the Speed, power, and coverage will be much more key in immediately pinning down the threats that Talonflame and Kyurem-B can't. There's also some personal flavor here in Helping Hand Keldeo, the move being useful in surprise picks with Talonflame and Bisharp and giving Keldeo presence even in a TR match-up.

double eject gar rain
:gengar-mega::amoonguss::politoed::kingdra::ludicolo::talonflame:

This was built around last year's Grand Prix, originally designed as an offensive team that can eat alive common meta matchups at the time. At first this was Sludge Bomb / Focus Blast SubMGar, which was meant to destroy THALK, though I since changed FB to Shadow Ball as a more generalist weapon in the current XY metagame; the team still does retain its being a rain team that beats other rain teams, with CB Talonflame, Timid Kingdra, and Ludicolo that outruns Adamant MPert by a point being prominent features of the squad.

When it comes to HO teams like these, momentum is king. Double Eject Button is on this team, on the two support mons at that, for safely and efficiently setting up a position of strength; they're handy for quickly setting up rain, but they're also useful for times when position gets conceded and taking it back becomes a priority. Politoed and Amoonguss are also quite handy outside of providing a safe switch; aside from obviously setting rain, Politoed is slow for a decent TR match-up alongside Talonflame and Amoonguss, while Amoonguss is handy for soaking a hit for Kingdra and MGar. Mega Gengar is bulky because it doesn't really need the power that much as all it needs to do is stay alive and trap for longer; the spread itself is made to take a CB BB from Talonflame, which can be problematic if not efficiently dealt with.
 


they told me i couldn't stall in doubles and i was like lol and then i made this team

the basic idea behind stall in doubles is to spam will o wisp and intimidate. this team has 2 of each. as you can imagine, your opponent is now physically weak. but what about the special attacks? you can use 252 hp 252 spdef to fix that problem. hell, you can even use the fat pink blob blissey as well as sticking assault vest on hitmontop. these mons will never die. people like to use mons like talonflame and thundurus in doubles because stealth rock doesn't exist. therefore, use stealth rock.

this team has been proven effective due to it's dominance on the ladder
it performed consistently well in room mini tours
and it also won the No Protect ORAS Doubles tournament (Note: a no-protect variant was used in this tournament)

here are some replays to see it in action
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-232791254
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-243553051
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-249154696

Importable -> Gaga Stall

shoutout to KyleCole for making a video about this team, Haruno for being my hype man, and Stratos for taking the loss with great sportsmanship
 

qsns

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VGCPL Champion
I'm probably going to edit / post again after DPL, but I have some thoughts I want to get out now.

Echoing Memoric's nominations from like a year ago lol, but Amoonguss / Sylveon / Skymin / Hoopa-U all deserve to move.



Thundurus 1 -> 2

Thund's impact on a game is often pretty minimal. It's got some strong TBolts and HP Ices, which are nice, but the majority of the tier (and players!) can position around its scariest aspect in Thunder Wave. Rain has adapted by maining Mega Swampert, TWave doesn't do great against balance, and HO often uses the Scarf Kyurem + Raichu combo to invalidate it. Stealth Rock have also done a number on Thund's viability recently, often relegating it to the lead slot (where it's easiest to deal with) because it doesn't have the necessary bulk to switch in after it takes 25%. Good Pokemon - I'd still consider it fourth best in the metagame, but does not stand on the level of Gengar or Landorus-T, especially seeing its quite low usage after the first few weeks of DPL.

edit: i lied this had decent usage in week 3 but i still don't think its t1



Tyranitar 4 -> 2

Easy top 5 Pokemon in the metagame. Compresses so many roles (Gengar trapper, Landorus-T lure, Stealth Rocker, Thundurus, Talonflame & Kyube check, Trick Room check, weather changer) into one slot and has a nasty attack stat to boot. It's seen solid success in the past year, mostly on the back of Memoric, but has picked up big time with other players recently. I think its very similar to Volcanion - strong, bulky bruiser that matches up well into most of the metagame, which is a formula that tends to work well in XY.


Heatran 2 -> 3

Heatran has mostly been eclipsed by Volcanion. The Substitute set is no longer as threatening as it was in the past (due to a number of factors - Landorus-T running more bulk + no Scarf anymore, TTar's popularity, and its resistances not mattering that much), and if you're not running Substitute Heatran, you're probably better off with Volcanion. Still can be threatening in some matchups, but doesn't have the wide range of solid ones that Volcanion does. Heatran also autoloses to Rain, and a Tier 2 Pokemon should not have a common autolose matchup.




Charizard Y 2 -> 4

I would not consider using Charizard Y in the current metagame. I feel like this will not have the votes to move to 4 (probably 3 instead) due to how people view XY from the past but its current iteration has no place for this. Tyranitar, Volcanion and Talonflame are some of the top used threats that completely shut this down, and you will find at least one of these, if not multiple, on most good teams. It suffers greatly from the "speed up" of the format since the THALK days, as Charizard's matchup into anything offensive is praying for a 1-for-1 at best. Stealth Rock also completely kills ZardY's bulk and it doesn't have a phenomenal speed tier / priority to mitigate this like Talonflame. It is currently sitting at 0 usage and I heavily doubt this will get brought during DPL. Bad Pokemon


Raichu 4 -> 3

Has seen recent tournament success which is more than most of Tier 4 lmao. Super simple mon - provides support moves, blocks Thundurus - but highly effective on the right types of teams.


e: I want to purge most of Tier 4 and I think Jelli fits in with pokes like Gastro and Ferro

I'll probably post on Kangaskhan later (I think it should be in 2) but don't have the best words to describe why yet
 
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qsns

is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Two-Time Past SPL Champion
VGCPL Champion
double post idc
1617544735373.png

Volcanion 2 -> 1

I made this nom last DPL and I'm going to do it again. Volcanion's metagame share keeps growing as time passes - it had an incredible 60% usage this year compared to 40% last year. It is the most effective glue for the majority of teams and provides instant offense that is incredibly hard to stop thanks to its amazing STAB combination and bulk. It doesn't care about speed control, it doesn't have great switchins, and it will pressure the opponent a ton no matter what the team. Additionally, the rise of Tyranitar gives it a good partner, checking Thundurus & Kyurem-B while piling on another Pokemon with similar traits to Volc. I am OK with Tier 1 just being Gengar and Landorus-T but Volcanion is a clear 3rd best to me and a good amount ahead of the rest of Tier 2.

1617545626029.png


Kangaskhan 1 -> 2

I've been struggling to find the words on why I'm not too hot on Kangaskhan and the only thing I can think of is... eh? The playerbase got a hell of a lot better dealing with its physical sets, forcing it to switch to a bulkier SToss one, and now it's just OK. It trades off its physical sets for consistency, but the problem with that is it never deals an amazing amount of damage. At best, it's going to trade for 1 and a half of your opponent's Pokemon and get a Fake Out or two in there, which isn't incredibly impressive for something that doesn't provide immediate defensive utility and takes up your Mega Slot. It's fine, it's rarely going to disappoint, but is not really defining the tier. FWIW I think offensive sets, especially with Low Kick to nail TTar, probably have some merit, but you give up soooo much potential in the early game while the Landorus-T/Amoonguss are healthy that it's probably not worth it.

1617546014934.png


Manectric UR -> 3

This was used 5 times in DPL, mostly because I spammed it towards the later half of the season after using JRL's week 3 team. If you know what Mane does in SM, you know what Mane does in XY. It trades off a really irritating pre-Mega speed tier for a great matchup into the best Mega, meaning it's about as viable as it is in SM as well. It's not an auto-win against Gengar teams by any means but is generally favorable without techs to deal with the Mane, meaning it won't snowball with Subsitutes / easy trapping. I would personally put it at 3 but it's seen exactly 1 tournament of usage so I'm nomming it to 4.

e: nah it's good enough for 3

1617546373921.png

Porygon2 4 -> 3

P2 is in this really nifty state where most team's damage output is from Pokemon like Tyranitar and Volcanion that it can easily outlast with a bit of support, but the metagame is just slightly too fast for Toxic to be worth running. I think this got voted out of Tier 3 last slate but it's seen 3 uses in DPL, all being wins, and is a really easy Pokemon to slap on and make any team's TTar and/or Volcanion massive threats. It can also be a win condition itself, which comes up pretty often. I deleted the Jellicent nom but am still making this one because I think this is the splashable, always solid wincon that basically? only struggles in the face of Amoong.

1617547045362.png
1617547059151.png
1617546920888.png
1617546931551.png
1617546937079.png
1617546965724.png
1617546971269.png
1617546975535.png
1617546980239.png

4 -> UR

These Pokemon suck and have not been used to good success in a long while. These are not on the same level as the niche but OK sometimes picks of Gastrodon and Ferrothorn. Please dear god get rid of MDiancie absolute shit mon
 
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DaAwesomeDude1

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Got a couple noms too that I was meaning to make but forgot. Personally I think VRs should be small especially for a centralized and mostly-solved meta like XY so a lot of my noms are gonna reflect that.

:swampert-mega:
3 -> 2
Might be a little weird to put Mega Swamp in a tier separate from all the rain goons but it's a top 3 mega right now so I think it's tiering should reflect that.

:cresselia:
3 -> 4
CM is still dangerous but the meta is too fast to really snowball imo. Gengar, Ttar, and Hydreigon being used much more also hinders how well Cress can do. It's still super fat and non-CM sets are effective too but it's not a tier 3 mon.

:gardevoir-mega:
3 -> 4
This should probably be unranked but I think it's dangerous enough to still be used considering there's like 5 good fairy resists. This should be pretty self-explanatory though; there's just too high of an opportunity cost in using it. It's also in an awkward speed tier so it's pretty much mandatory to run dedicated speed control on Garde teams which is super restrictive on what kinds of teams you can fit Garde on. For example, if you're using max speed, you're not fast enough so you're almost always gonna have to use Mega Garde on some Tailwind HO-ish team to really make full use of what it offers. The biggest issue with Garde imo is that once said speed control wears off, it becomes really manageable due to its mediocre bulk. Again, the lack of a ton of good fairy resists still makes me think Garde can be amazing on the right team but it needs a ton of support to really do well so for now I think it should be tier 4.

:aegislash:
3 -> 4
Anytime I use Aegislash it just feels mediocre. Min speed has to tank a hit before it can do anything and its damage output is not worth the trade. Steel types also aren't as valuable nowadays. It's sub set and wide guard makes Aegislash still an ok mon but it's not on the same power level as other tier 3 mons like Hydreigon or Diancie.

:scrafty:
3 -> 4
Super mediocre mon. It clicks Fake Out and then you hope your opponent triggers eject button so you can get it off of the field. You Intimidate it once and then it becomes dead weight. Similarly to Aegislash, it has tools that makes it an ok mon (Intimidate, Knock Off, decent fighting type, etc.) but it's just not on the same power level as other tier 3 mons.

:azumarill: :genesect: :keldeo: :mew: :rhydon:
4 -> unranked

I feel like these 5 all have decent niches in theory but just doesn't work in practice.
  • Azumarill is deadweight without BD. It's much harder now to find an opportunity to set up and even at +6 it isn't extremely threatening. Also the only person I've seen use Azu in the past like 5 years is stax.
  • Genesect is cool cause it gets a weird combination of moves that lets it be effective against some top threats alongside random coverage moves that lets you snipe mons (Energy Ball for Swamp / Gastrodon, Tbolt, etc.). The issue with Genesect though is that it never wants to be locked into any of its moves which really hinders the effectiveness of the scarfed set. A lot of its damage output for non-SE hits is also tied to getting the correct Download boost. You might be able to use AV but I haven't seen that used enough so I'm not sure how good it'll actually be.
  • The only time I've seen Keldeo used is the genie killer team that memo uses. Other than that team, Keldeo is terrible. Doesn't hit hard enough and is completely invalidated by Amoonguss.
  • There aren't any good transform targets for Mew and everything else that it offers (Fake Out, rocks, random coverage, etc.) isn't good enough to justify using Mew.
  • Rhydon just feels like a worst Ttar to me. It's really only good on memo sun imo since if you run into rain, Rhydon pretty much is gonna be fodder. It completely stops Thundurus but there are better ways of beating that mon without needing to run Rhydon.
 

Idyll

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[THREAD UPDATES]

[SAMPLE TEAMS]


After a year or so, updates are coming to this thread! First and foremost: sample teams have been updated! The metagame has changed significantly since the last time sample teams were updated, which was more or less before DPL 6. Some of the old sample teams were kept but updated to be a bit more modern.
  • THALKS is still a quintessential and viable team in the metagame, though the variant we had before needed some updating with sets e.g. Mega Kangaskhan is now SToss / Crunch instead of the old variant which had DEdge, among other details
  • Everybody's Rain is pretty much unchanged, because it more or less functions fine as it is.
  • Geniekillers is still a viable team in the metagame for exploiting geniebuilds, and it's also still a definitive archetype outside of that as a hyper offense team with Mega Gengar. This new version features Keldeo over Volcanion to be better prepared against Tyranitar, now much more common than when the original Geniekillers was built.
The rest of the sample teams were removed and in their place now is qsns's Mega Gengar SemiRoom team. This team notably features more modern metagame innovations, particularly Tyranitar and Porygon2, and among the set of sample teams we now have, it represents how to use Trick Room in the metagame.

To see the updated samples, check the third post on this thread!

[VIABILITY RANKINGS]

Of course, we also updated the VR! This follows the same idea of having our resources representative of the current metagame, basically just keeping them up to date. Myself, Majorbowman, Mishimono, qsns, and SMB voted on all the nominations from post #31 of this thread onwards. Here is the result of the voting:

Falls:

:amoonguss:Amoonguss: 1 -> 2
:kangaskhan-mega:Mega Kangaskhan: 1 -> 2
:thundurus:Thundurus: 1 -> 2
:heatran:Heatran: 2 -> 3
:hoopa-unbound:Hoopa-U: 2 -> 3
:sylveon:Sylveon: 2 -> 3
:charizard-mega-y:Mega Charizard: 2 -> 4
:cresselia:Cresselia: 3 -> 4
:gardevoir-mega:Mega Gardevoir: 3 -> 4
:clefairy:Clefairy: 4 -> UR
:diancie-mega:Mega Diancie: 4 -> UR
:gengar:Gengar: 4 -> UR
:latios:Latios: 4 -> UR
:metagross-mega:Mega Metagross: 4 -> UR
:mew:Mew: 4 -> UR
:rhydon:Rhydon: 4 -> UR
:terrakion:Terrakion: 4 -> UR
:venusaur-mega:Mega Venusaur: 4 -> UR
:volcarona:Volcarona: 4 -> UR

Rises:

:volcanion:Volcanion: 2 -> 1
:tyranitar:Tyranitar: 4 -> 2
:porygon2:Porygon2: 4 -> 3
:manectric-mega:Mega Manectric: UR -> 3
To see the new updated VR with these changes in effect, please see the second post on this thread!

That should be it for a while! Unless there are significant developments during the Doubles Classic II, y'all will be seeing this kind of post again by next DPL.

:blobuwu:
 
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qsns

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cool xy sets for anyone in cup!

xy has been a pretty stable metagame after MGar + TTar's rise and I don't foresee that changing so don't expect anything revolutionary

1624215231267.png

Kyurem-Black @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Fusion Bolt
- Protect

Kyurem-B despises sand. Kyurem-B loves switching into Amoonguss and its common partners like Volcanion. Yay. I wasn't super happy with using Kyurem-B on more balancey teams until I started messing around with non-Scarf/LOrb sets. I've found this has more longevity than Assault Vest on a TTar team considering you have Protect too. I don't think running bulk on Kyurem-B is super necessary considering you beat the shit out of Volcanion already, it's important to outspeed all non-Scarf Landorus-T to prevent Rocks / U-Turns, and dropping SpA is noticeable vs. a lot of Amoonguss & slightly chipped Volcanion. Fusion Bolt is very droppable, Sub could be cool here.

1624215246112.png

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- U-turn
- Hidden Power [Ice]

I am of the opinion that Earth Power Lando-T in XY is hot garbage. The thing that makes Landorus-T perform as a Tier 1 Pokemon is its ridiculous power as a lategame cleaner combined with its early game utility, and Earth Power confines it to the latter (and it's not even great at sniping the ground weaks because TTar is so much more specially bulky + Amoonguss exists!!!). HP Ice can still be a really useful move on Landorus-T for making the scary lategame come a lot earlier, dealing ~60% to most Landorus-T without any investment. Despite being a move with no investment, it has a lot of synergy with its lategame potential and can be a neat option over Superpower.

1624215498151.png

Shaymin-Sky @ Life Orb
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Air Slash
- Substitute
- Protect

Skymin gets a lot a free turns by virtue of it being a really fast, strong threat, so you get to click sub a lot vs. stuff like Amoong. You can drop Earth Power because Heatran doesn't really exist right now (but I'd make sure you have some other answer to it lol). I don't mind Sub + LOrb because Skymin doesn't have a defensive role on most teams and losing health doesn't really matter that much. I would use this on a team with strong Gengar and especially Mane answers - something like Exca sand is ideal for this set.


1624215259132.png

Keldeo @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Focus Blast
- Protect

Keldeo's a cool mon right now thanks to the relative lack of Thundurus and spike in TTar usage but the standard set doesn't do that well into Volcanion as you'd want a Water-type to. Focus Blast changes that.

252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Volcanion: 274-325 (75.4 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 153-183 (42.1 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Use this on teams that don't mind dropping Taunt that much (ie please have a Trick Room matchup) or drop Secret Sword, but Pump and FBlast being your only attacking moves scares me
 
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I just wanted to post about a super potent core I've been using a lot in XY; I call it MGK.

:manectric-mega::gothitelle::kyurem-black:

Manectric, Gothitelle, and Kyurem complement each other really well and limit the opponent's options. Versus Gengar teams, Manectric can annoy the opponent with Volt Switch and Snarl, and versus THALK teams Kyurem puts in a lot of work. All the while, Gothitelle's Shadow Tag prevents switching, allowing Kyurem to get free kills versus stuff like Landorus, Thundurus, and others. Manectric's Intimidate and Snarl + Shadow Tag also cripples a lot of threats. On top of all this, Manectric's Lightning Rod means Kyurem can't get Paralyzed by Prankster Thunder Wave.

Continuing the team building process after the first three, I'll typically add a Steel-type + Landorus check, a Talonflame check, then a rain check. I'll include some teams below that y'all can try out if you're interested.

:manectric-mega::gothitelle::kyurem-black::landorus-therian::volcanion::ferrothorn:
:manectric-mega::gothitelle::kyurem-black::gastrodon::heatran::ferrothorn:
:manectric-mega::gothitelle::kyurem-black::keldeo::heatran::amoonguss:
:manectric-mega::gothitelle::kyurem-black::volcanion::tyranitar::virizion:

This core tends to struggle versus Volcanion, Sylveon, Bisharp, and/or Tyranitar, depending on how the rest of the team is built, but I still think it's a really solid archetype that should see more use.

Also y'all should really re-suspect Mega Salamence, it'd be a super healthy addition to the meta game cause Jirachi isn't around and TTar, Manectric, and Kyurem are all super popular. Plus XY is starting to feel stale with Mega Gengar and Mega Kangaskhan dominating everything, if you guys were to #FREEMENCE it could spice things up a bit.

Anyways hope y'all enjoy the teams.
 
unfortunately because I am absolute trash at this video game, xy cup was the only tour I made it past round 1 in, eventually losing my win-and-in to playoffs to human in top 8

I did a lot of building and testing for this tour actually. I quite enjoyed xy a lot and hopefully I'll get to play some of it in DPL. I have two teams I want to share!
:kangaskhan-mega: :togekiss: :azumarill: :kyurem-black: :bisharp: :talonflame:

I found this team to be really cool for capitalizing on positive matchups vs single attacking megas like Gengar, Kangaskhan, Manectric, etc. Azu commands a lot of attention at preview which provokes your opponent into using pretty telegraphed leads. Sometimes the matchup is good enough that you just go with lead azu anyways, or the holes it opens up are enough for talonflame/bisharp to spam priority and clean. I floated around with Kangaskhan movesets, I don't think Low Kick and Crunch are the absolute best two moves but it's what's in my builder for now. Helping Hand Togekiss with triple priority is very good.

:gengar-mega: :diancie: :tyranitar: :landorus-therian: :porygon2: :gastrodon:

Don't remember exactly where I got the inspiration for this team but I just remember seeing someone pop off with Diancie in an XY game so I decided I'd make a team with it. Double rocks + gastro just seemed super annoying for common builds to deal with. For most things its pretty solid, though it generally doesn't like Amoonguss and Ferrothorn due to a lack of Volcanion / multiple sleep answers. HP Fire p2 is raw as fuck tho

too lazy to find replays but if you look up my name or go to the xy cup threads you'll see these teams in action. Thanks qsns Frania for testing with me and teaching me a little about this tier <3

I think the VR is in pretty good shape. I would push for a Bisharp rise to tier 3 and possibly Gastrodon as well, but nothing else really catches my eye.

free mence when?
 
Here are 2 teams I made for xy cup

:xy/politoed: :xy/kingdra: :xy/amoonguss: :xy/metagross: :xy/sylveon: :ss/talonflame:
Politoed @ Eject Button
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Helping Hand
- Encore
- Protect



Kingdra @ Choice Specs
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Muddy Water
- Draco Meteor
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam



Amoonguss @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Rage Powder
- Spore
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Energy Ball



Metagross @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake
- Protect



Talonflame @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Taunt



Sylveon @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 136 SpA / 36 SpD / 44 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Heal Bell
- Helping Hand
- Protect


I wanted to use this for classic playoffs but i didnt get a chance to play xy vs actuarily in our tiebreaker set. (SM and BW only). This team is really fun to use and should probably have Mega Swampert lol but its a new take on rain. I dont know if players will like using it but here is a replay showcasing how strong the team can be: Replays - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)

:xy/abomasnow: :xy/diancie: :xy/hoopa-unbound: :xy/greninja: :xy/scrafty: :xy/talonflame:
Abomasnow @ Abomasite
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 104 HP / 152 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Blizzard
- Ice Shard
- Giga Drain
- Protect



Diancie @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Protect



Hoopa-Unbound @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Magician
EVs: 80 HP / 168 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Brave Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Hyperspace Hole
- Trick Room
- Protect



Greninja @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
EVs: 176 Atk / 80 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Blizzard
- U-turn
- Low Kick



Scrafty @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Knock Off
- Head Smash
- Drain Punch



Talonflame @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 24 SpD / 32 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Quick Guard


I experimented with stax hail in both SM and SS so it was only right to try to make it work in XY. This is the best version i built and it was a blast using it. The gameplan is pretty simple; set up trickroom and let your slow mons wreck havoc. Once trickroom is about to end, reposition yourself and bring out greninja or talonflame to apply pressure on your opponents. I never really liked playing xy(especially once mega gar became the best mon in the tier) but this tier is hella fun to play. I was able to make top 8 this year in XY cup so im hoping to win it all next year.
 
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Idyll

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Hi everyone! We plan to make updates to the VR in two weeks or so, so make your nominations now while you can! I also plan to share my 2021 teamdump soon after my runs in RoA Olympics and ORASPL end.

In the meantime, here are my noms!

:talonflame:
Talonflame - 2 -> 3

Talonflame is still quite good, but I think everyone would agree that it's not at the same level as Mega Kangaskhan, Kyurem-B, and the other guys are. The others in Tier 2 are basically more universally applicable than Talonflame is on most teams. Furthermore, the rise of Mega Manectric and meta-relevance of Tyranitar hampers it quite a lot, makes it really tough to push with Talonflame compared to before.

:Aegislash::hoopa-unbound:
Aegislash and Hoopa - 3 -> 4

Both of these are in a similar boat; they're strong attackers that are just incredibly niche, and they both get destroyed by Bisharp. Aegislash only makes appearances in select balance teams that are specifically looking for both a generically bulky attacker and a Diancie-answer, while Hoopa-U rn is exclusively a Full-TR pick; these types of teams are rare enough already.

:kingdra::ludicolo:
Kingdra and Ludicolo - 3 -> 4

Rain as an archetype is generally not as popular atm. Its main pieces are really Mega Swampert and Politoed, while Kingdra and Ludicolo are mostly just there as the second-best Swift Swimmers available for the sake of Water-spam. Kingdra and Ludicolo aren't really on the same level as the other two, otherwise we'd see more rain with other Megas, but we really don't that much so yeah.

:scrafty:
Scrafty - 3 -> 4

It's mostly a Fake Out bot for Mega Gengar Trick Room teams, and otherwise sees no notable usage. Its typing is still dodgy and its match-up to Volcanion is still garbage, so it's tough to use in a more generic manner. Nowadays it's even more exploitable with Bisharp increasing in prominence.

:suicune:
Suicune -> 4 -> UR

Passive Tailwind-setters just don't have a place in today's XY. While it does have niche use as it also checks Volcanion decently with Snarl, it also doesn't have much staying power past its natural bulk, the lack of recovery really hurts it. Right now, it's a worse Jellicent, which has additional access to Wisp and Recover while still being similar in use as a bulky Water-type that set Speed control and deal with foes passively (Suicune has Snarl and Toxic access). While Jellicent is weak to Bisharp, Suicune also gets owned by it too since it can't actually use Snarl against it lol

:bisharp:
Bisharp - 4 -> 3

Bisharp is an absolute menace in XY right now. While we don't really rank in-order within tiers, it's definitely a mon that'd be among the top dogs of tier 3. It just takes advantage of a lot of metagame trends right now. While it's always exploited Landorus-T, the rise of another meta-relevant Intimidate in Mega Manectric makes Bisharp a great matchup pick. It also faresfavorably against Mega Gengar, resisting both of its STABs, as well as threats that have recently surged in popularity such as Porygon2 and Tyranitar. Finally, it's really great at punishing how teams are built right now in general. Teams don't really run much in terms of Dark resists, and when they do they almost always are weak to Steel e.g. Tyranitar, Diancie, Sylveon. The way they check strong physical attackers in general also tend to involve Intimidate, something which Bisharp naturally punishes. As of this moment, it wouldn't be wrong to say that XY runs through Bisharp.
 

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